Hi guys,
Our cat (16/17 years old) is really on it's last legs .. it can barely walk .. is in pain/discomfort all the time .. the only thing it will eat is yogurt (offered to Lord Krishna) ..
The vet said he would have already put it down over a week ago .. it has an irreversible condition (a few in fact) .. It is on some medication and we are trying to give it water and food where he will eat it ..
I am also playing it lots of Hare Krishna Kirtan (thankfully provided in the media section on this site, thankyou) .. in the hope that it will benefit the traveling soul on his journey ..
I'm wondering though .. where is the Vaisnava / Vedic / ISKON stance on finally putting the creature to sleep ?
I think in the wild he would already have crawled under a bush and stopped eating/drinking and passed on ..
I think it is only a matter of a day or three before this decision has to be made .. any pearls of wisdom would of course be appreciated.
Hare Krishna.
3D.
from SP purport SB
from SP purport SB 5.10.2
...the Vaisnava takes care not to annihilate untimely or unnecessarily any life form. All living entities have to fulfill a certain duration for being encaged in a particular type of material body. They have to finish the duration allotted a particular body before being promoted or evolved to another body. Killing an animal or any other living being simply places an impediment in the way of his completing his term of imprisonment in a certain body.
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According to the law of karma, all those who are connected to the killing of an animal are liable, including the ones who give permission, the ones who kill, and the ones who help.
Hare Krsna
Here are some ideas on animals and animal passings, written by other devotees.
"Jaya [an ox] has passed away. After over 5 years of fighting cancer in his eyes, he sat down on September 16 and could not get up. That following day his soul left his body. It was a quick and fearless departure. He had been so fortunate to keep pasturing with the herd throughout his illness and we hoped that when he did go down he would leave quickly. When we found him down we immediately placed a tape of Srila Prabhupada chanting near him and gave him holy water from the Ganges and Yamuna rivers. We suspected that he would leave us quickly as he had been loosing the fight against the cancer for several months...
"We are sad not to have Jaya's association any longer, but at the same time we are glad that he passed swiftly with enough time to receive sanctifying holy water, hear the chanting of sacred mantras and have the association of the herd till the end."
(from ISCOWP October monthly update)
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"My inspiration comes from the Bhagavad-Gita 5.18 where Lord Krishna tells Arjuna: "The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."
"According to our beliefs, everyone is the same spiritual soul inside of their outer shell, or material bodies. We do not make any distinction between species or castes. A dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from our viewpoint. The different bodies may be of different natures, however the Soul within the different bodies are of Spiritual nature. We also believe that the Supreme Lord resides in each and everyone's body."
(Hrimati Devi Dasi, The Loving Approach to Temple Elephant Care)
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Myth: Animals that are suffering should be ‘put to sleep.’
Fact: It is not ‘sleep’ but an undignified death from a lethal injection of heavy liquid barbiturates – a very different state of existence.
(from The Vaishnava Voice, Myths, Facts and How you can Help, 12-27-01)
I hope that you find peace, and that this is in some way helpful.
bhaktincarol
Its very hard
Its very hard seeing this situation - but as you say
"I think in the wild he would already have crawled under a bush and stopped eating/drinking and passed on .."
I think the situation could warrant re-examination-
No disrespect intended, but if the parties concerned are keeping the animal alive, when (if nature was in control) would have crawled under a bush and died - and the animal is in pain, then what action has already been committed? and how does that compare to the decision of terminating the life if the animal is in pain - put the situation on a scale - which action weighs out more than the other ? you probably couldn't answer, nor could I, or anyone.
I don't agree with a text book answers (it cant accommodate) - it only works if you mold the circumstances to the law, that's why in regular law practice there is a need for a judge.
Human Karma is complicated and you have to do what you feel is right - there is no law book answer to some things because of complications - example: the decision has already been made to keep the animal alive when nature would have maybe done otherwise - but it seems different concerning deciding the death - you have to put it on the scales!
Haribol
[[I don't agree with a text
[[I don't agree with a text book answers (it cant accommodate) - it only works if you mold the circumstances to the law, that's why in regular law practice there is a need for a judge.]]
There is a judge Krishna and Guru. This is a subject that is clearly understood that there is not something that devotees are confused about. For example there was humongous outrage, from ISKCON devotees and Hindus, last year when in Europe when the British Government put one of the temple cows to 'sleep'
[[and you have to do what you feel is right ]]
feelings betray. Unless we are pure devotees we should not act under 'feelings' as they betray and are not perfect.
Confused
"There is a judge Krishna and Guru" - why are you saying this to me after the fact?
Has anyone suggested this to you 3d? - it does sound like a good plan, but it comes to us in funny ways.
I dont think devotees are confuse about putting an animal to sleep -- devotees on this thread seem to be confused as to whether they want to address the issue of keeping the animal alive!
No one seems to want to talk about that - you want to talk about the yes or no moral of the death -- this is easy!!!
what I learned from that is that is the British government put a cow to sleep, and devotees freaked out !! OK - got it -- now what does 3d do ??? -
based on the responses he should take it off meds and let it die, yes - no ? What do you think 3d, does this help you?
p.s feelings only betray in the state of the five sense - feelings above reason do not.
- sorry 3d, I think you should have gotten a better answer, but we are overly concerned with validating our stance.
emotional realism
Hi Everyone - so sorry to cause any fragmentation ..
I can understand both points of view ..
Jivatattva's adaptive / emotional
.. and everyone else's almost fundamental following of law.
I do think it's unfair to chastise Jivatattva .. I also agree that fundamentally we should move from the line .. but I also also agree that lifes intricacies are more varied than text ...
It's funny how I can agree with both angles.
Ultimately though .. no, I'm afraid this discussion doesn;t give me a clear answer ..
Actually it is really my partner's cat. She saw it born and has had it it's whole life. I have said that fundamentally I believe we should not differentiate between human for and animal .. and we wouldn't put a human 'down'.
However .. as Jivatattva rightly points out - we are already 'in it' - we have actively extended it's stay in it's current body .. (medication, bringing it food etc etc)
So - it can not walk, it rejects all 'normal' cat food, it can not feed itself, it is in permanent pain discomfort ..
Do we continue do bring it food ? Or do we put the food out of it's reach ?
Ultimately I think I agree with the fundamental POV - BUT all this - is more important to my partner - who has a deeper connection with the animal .. having had it from birth ..
So ultimately it's her decision - and I feel that her instincts are perhaps a good a gauge as any..
Thanks to all for your perspective, I read and value all your contributions - and although it may conflict with scripture a special thanks to jivatattva - for what I will call the 'emotional realism' ;)
Hare Krishna
:3D)
Everyone is destined to live for a certain period
Harikesa: Actually, even if they didn't do anything, they would live the same amount.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is destined to live for a certain period. You cannot prolong it, neither reduce it.
(from SP room conversation Oct. 15, 1975, Johhnesburg)
Prabhupada: Protection is ultimately Krsna.
Aksayananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is all false thought that "He is giving me protection. He is giving me..."
Aksayananda: Yes. And the same person who is giving me protection, later he will ask me for protection, and then I will ask somebody else...
Prabhupada: No, no, even when the father-mother is supposed to give protection, that is also not right conclusion. Otherwise there are so many fathers and mothers who is giving protection to his children. The father-mother, when the child is sick, the father-mother gives all—one who has got means—best medicine, best medical treatment, but the child dies. Where is the protection?
(SP morning walk April 9, 1976, Vrndavana)
separating sentiment from reality
> Jivatattva's adaptive / emotional .. and everyone else's almost fundamental following of law.
The problem is that we can't adapt laws, we have to adapt ourselves to them if we want to avoid suffering. We're neither lawmakers nor judges. Tough to accept? Definitely.
> but I also also agree that lifes intricacies are more varied than text
In sastra we can find principles which give good enough idea how to act in most situations. Otherwise we need to ask someone more knowledgeable.
> we have actively extended it's stay in it's current body .. (medication, bringing it food etc etc)
And I mentioned this is not true, these factors being part of the cat's karma from the past (since in the cat's body there's no new karma created).
> Do we continue do bring it food ? Or do we put the food out of it's reach ?
You can place it in front of the cat to choose to eat or not. Dying animals usually stop eating on their own. Otoh, forced feeding should be avoided.
> So ultimately it's her decision - and I feel that her instincts are perhaps a good a gauge as any..
Sure. This is a chance for her to learn about the nature of living beings, karma, etc. At the same time, if she makes a wrong decision (to kill the cat), she must be ready to take the karma for that.
Hope this helps.
ys Jan
Thanks again Jan (and
Thanks again Jan (and everyone that I haven't replied to directly, much appreciated) - I can't fault your logic .. and on a fundamental level think that you're right ..
SP wrote
from SP purport BG 2.19
Killing the body of anyone without authority is abominable and is punishable by the law of the state as well as by the law of the Lord.
from SP purport BG 14.16
Every living creature is a son of the Supreme Lord, and He does not tolerate even an ant's being killed.
"but what if an animal is, say, run over in an accident?"
Thankyou Jivatattva for another perspective.
TBH - as you say - I am totally unclear on what is the right thing to do. Because the vet has already prescribed anti-biotics .. the cat is on a course.. and of course we are carrying his food to him .. (as I said he is generally rejecting everything except for water & milk & yogurt, which I have offered to Lord Krishna) - but yes - if we were not caring for him .. I think he would have passed on already ..
If we do not care for him .. he will die a slow death in our apartment .. is that better than taking him to the vet ?
I am far from a pure devotee - but I have read the Gita, many of Swami Prabhupada's writings .. been to the temple etc ..
My partner however has not done these things .. and over all, although has some small notion of spirit .. can not get to grips with the notion of reincarnation .. because in her words - she does not agree with the caste system (of course from what she sees as a humanitarian point of view)
.. which of course - kinda opens up a wider debate ..
So when I proffered janVEDA's advice below RE: allowing the life to fill out it's natural term Vs 'Putting to sleep' / Termination / Killing .. she asks the question :
"but what if an animal is, say, run over in an accident?" - "would that mean they have to re start their turn in the same body ?"
- of course I dont have answers.. (and I said I would ask here)
From what I understand of what you are saying Jivatattva - you are meaning that - already we are prolonging the suffering .. the situation is to a point where there are no clear answers ..
- the life is already prolonged 'artificially' - and so to terminate the life 'artificially' - does not necessarily mean the spirit soul will have to begin this term again ..
Pffff .. sorry for the confusion .. & thank you both/all for your perspectives.
Hare Krishna
:3D)
Yes
That was what I was saying - but also, not only from the perspective of the animal and its karma.
Like I was saying, human Karma is complicated, because we have additional responsibilities and abilities that animals do not.
The perspective that whatever the cats karma is, is being executed by the laws of nature is true - but this is a one dimensional perspective that does not consider 'relationship' - your cats karma is such - but, what have you done? what has been your relationship to the cat, what has been your actions and what is the karma of those actions. One could say, well that's your karma - there is the cats karma and that's the cats condition, then there is your karma and that is your condition - this would be correct, except that it does not consider relationship, responsibility and domain -- all of these laws that are taught can become 'glorious avoidance' of ? - making a hard decision, bad fallout, trying to reason with the aid of religion to avoid the inevitable - this is just a more aloof reasoning within the five sense.
Premeditated karmic protectionism is just voluntary imprisonment, for a fear of making a mistake with freewill.
Arjun tried to reason his way out of fighting, and Krishna said fight - there are many lessons from this, one is 'engage yourself - don't flounder, commit, and if you end up being wrong, take the hit!
Of course it is proper to seek the right way!
No offence my friend, I truly feel for you and your situation, I live on a farm and we have seen all sorts of situations with animals - but in all seriousness, if you have voluntarily participated in extending the animals life if the animal was know to be terminal (although totally understandable to help the animal) - this is self gratification at the expense of others. So
you are already in the game, and now you have to decide how it will end -- do not worry one way or the other, if you have the right intention in your heart, there will be no judgment against you.
Haribol
> "but what if an animal is,
> "but what if an animal is, say, run over in an accident?" - "would that mean they have to re start their turn in the same body ?"
Yes. Every violent death leads to another material body to finish the undone. In case of humans it's a sign of negative karma and the person becomes a ghost for some time, as per Garuda Purana.
> - the life is already prolonged 'artificially' - and so to terminate the life 'artificially' - does not necessarily mean the spirit soul will have to begin this term again
We cannot prolong anyone's life beyond his karma. It only looks like that, due to modern medicine and technology but this is a part of his karma-defined lifetime. In fact, when someone's time has come nothing material can stop it.
Analogically, we can't influence anyone's time of birth by medication, etc. The jiva is carrying his karma from the past so his time of birth is already decided.
To think otherwise is a wishful thinking that we can overcome karma by material means.
Hare Krsna
We don't have the ability to provide life.
Hare Krsna
tirobhava
'Putting to sleep' is just a disguised way to say 'kill'. Sastra says that killing will force the jiva to be reborn in the same body again to 'finish her term'. Iow, the material suffering won't be diminished but increased (although we won't see it). The materialist's position is that only what he sees is real so if he doesn't see it it doesn't matter... but it does, for all involved.
Kirtan, prasadam, mahawater are very auspicious. As per Gita Mahatmya of Padma Purana you can also read a chapter from the Gita and offer the result to a departing jiva, regardless of the body.
Hare Krishna. Hope this helps. Wishing your cat the best future.
ys Jan
Thank you JanVEDA - that's
Thank you JanVEDA - that's wonderful advice :)
- it is just very difficult to see the animal suffering ..
Hare Krishna
s'all good
Honestly guys - sorry if I've somehow prompted fracture .. obviously not my intention.
Just to clarify my position - I really appreciate all who have taken the time to give advice - it's all gratefully received, read & considered.
On 'confusing newcomers' - don't worry - it's much better to have open discourse - and (perhaps) resolution through difference of perspective - than it is to have suppressed expression & a false unified front.
Perhas, if you want to clarify 'official' position - perhaps give any monks posting - a different colour or something .. Other than that - I know everyone's intentions are good, so s'all good :)
Hare Krishna
:3D)