I have browsed this site quite a lot as a stalker - and I thought it was about time to say hello. Let me just say at the outset that I am interested with religions in general (though I have not read up a lot on the subject).
Given my present state of knowledge and experience, I define myself as an atheist (yes I am damned by so many religions that I will have a selection of hells to go to at my death or else reincarnation into lower forms of life).
But I digress - what I'm really interested is
1. what ISKCON is all about, and
2. how you came to choose one particular religion over another.
Vinoba - to answer your
Vinoba - to answer your question about Gary Fawkes reason for becoming an Krishna Devotee.. id like to offer my thoughts..
Although KC conciousness believes that we have the best spiritual path for this current age ( which we call Kali Yuga ) of war and lack of spirituality and ignorance of god etc we arent obsessed with having ''the truth '' in the way other religions are...
so for devotees - its not about having the one and only right path to god, but having the BEST path to god/ krishna.. but on a personal level...
while we may believe that KC is right / best for this age we completely acknowledge that all other paths to god / krishna are valid and that Krishna has many many names -- Allah, Hashem, Deu etc and youll often find people advising others to first learn about their own spiritual heritage befor becoming a devotee...
also - we dont prevent people from attending other spiritual institutions.. and there are many people like me with a ''dual spirituality '' who had spiritual backgrounds before becoming a devotee and who are still connected to them.
for instance - im of jewish heritage. I still consider myself jewish - i teach in synagogue, attend the jewish holy days etc .. its all god so its all good - if you get me ? :)
people who become devotees do so because they have found a path that for THEM personally is the best way to advance spiritually..
THAT is our focus - advancing spiritually- helping others do the same.. the truth is the truth - krishna is krishna - regardless of whether a person believes it or not ... so for us finding the truth is not really important ...
advancing spiritually - thats what we pay attention to...
does that help ?
Absolutely. It certainly
Absolutely. It certainly helps. Spiritual advancement is your goal.
So if I'm understanding correctly, you believe there are different valid paths to spirituality.
This is all very confusing to me, since the religions themselves don't agree that there are different valid paths: for example in KC you will hear that there is NO other way [repeat 3 times] except for chanting the holy names of God. In Christianity they will say that NO-ONE comes to God except through Christ.
As for your own dual spirituality, how do you reconcile the differences between the two traditions which you follow? Or do you decide to disregard the differences and focus on the similarities?
Hare Krishna !! Welcome to
Hare Krishna !!
Welcome to the wonderfull and beautifull world of Krishna conciousness.
On the most basic level, Iskcon is the official name for Krishna Conciousness. And Krishna conciousness is all about understanding Krishna/ God and living a happy and fullfilled life thats centered advancing ourselves spiritually and ''going back to god'' ... ie - advancing spiritually to a level where we are continually and blissfully in direct service of God - in his presence ... heaven - is i guess what other religions would call it : )
serving god // Krishna can be done in lots of ways whether its chanting his name on japa beads, doing service in the temple, eating prasadam ( food thats been first offered to Krishna so its ''spiritualized ) , dancing and singing in praise of Krishna, seeing Krishnas beautifull form in the temple, learning about Krishna and his transendental pastimes, or just associating with devotees and helping to spread knowledge of Krishna...
All these activities are blissfull and happy and every enjoyable..
does that make sense ?
why I came to Krishna...
i guess pretty much for the reasons I just mentioned.
I found a path that is concentrated on advancing ourselves spiritually and gently helping others to do the same. Krishna conciousness is full of light and music and dancing and FUN... its understood that that although there are many bad things in this world and that life is full of suffering ... there is a solution to it all - and that despite the weakness of our material form, life - in the service of Krishna, in the association of his devotees is and should be fun and happy and enjoyment of being servants of god...
I probably sound like a fanatic - but im not - thats just how it is ...
there is no condeming a person to one or more hells, no harsh judgement of people for not having the ''right '' god - all spiritual paths to god are valid - with the idea that KC is the best one for this age...
thats what first drew me to the temple and devotees and kept me comming back.. when im at the temple - krishna is there for me to take or leave and in quantaties that i can deal with..
no one is pressuring me to submit to an instant conversion or to become more religious or fanatical.. advice and information and encouragement is there for me whenever I need it...
I also like the idea that our spiritual advancement is very much in our hands. How we advance spiritualy depends on the practical steps we take in this life.. and its not enought to simply believe - like you do in christianity or islam - you have to get up and do something with the belief you have ... chant hare krishna , eat prasadam, distribute books - whatever ..
its the same with what comes after your life. Its not enough to just believe in Krishna - that wont get you into heaven, you have to address your karma and make a strong determination to change it so that you can advance spiritually -
if you look beyond the ingorant types that say Hare Krishnas are a cult etc - youll see that we actually have a good reputation - people associate devotees with happy, nice , tolerant people that dont push our views onto others.. and there are many people that come to the temple who may not believe as we do - but still get the benefit of eating good , spiritual food , hearing krishnas name being spoken continously - and all because they know they can do so without being condemmed to hell etc ...
there is so much more - i could go on all day...
but i would say - if you havent been already - go and check out your nearest Iskcon temple - and youll see what i mean for yourself.
"i could go on all day..." I
"i could go on all day..."
I could too... if I had the time :)
"does that make sense ?"
Yep, most people hanker after happiness. But from a "philosophical" viewpoint, you could postulate (and even find in reality(!)) people who seek out suffering, pain, evil deeds, death for themselves. They may even find the satisfaction that most people gain from happiness. The proposal of happiness (eternal or otherwise) would hold no meaning to them (they would be indifferent to the common religious bribe/threat of heaven/hell).
"I probably sound like a fanatic - but im not - thats just how it is ..."
"no one is pressuring me to submit to an instant conversion or to become more religious or fanatical."
Ahem, that means you are not a devotee yet. From what I've read, a devotee should be fanatical about Krishna. And, at the final stage, the devotee is so engrossed that he sees every other person as Krishna conscious (even if they are not) - or so I think.
"eating prasadam"
I don't know about spiritualized food.. but I do know that that is some of the best vegetarian food I've ever eaten.
"there is no condeming a person to one or more hells"
I'll have to disagree with you on that one. Through incurring bad karma there is damnation to "hellish planets", albeit not permanently.
"we actually have a good reputation"
I'll agree on that one. There has been considerably less scandals, crises and dissensions than in other organizations (though there has been). And also through personal experience I do tend to find KC and also vegetarian people to be generally more gentle and kind and happy than the rest of us meat-eaters. We tend to be more violent - but I haven't figured out if this is truly a disadvantage.
Also I'll tell you what most impressed me - the scholarship of Srila Prabhupada - I read the Science of self-realization and his various discussions with other religious thinkers and academic scholars (the exchange of letters with Dr. Staal comes to mind) led me to think that here is a learned man who actually knows his stuff. This cannot be said of a lot of other Indian "gurus" otherwise known as conmen. There are also a few other books that I've read (but not thoroughly) like Sri Isopanisad, Raja Vidya, etc. but I'm missing out on the multi-volume works like the Bhagavatam [through lack of finances :)]
[Btw: if you've been reading my responses you would know that I have a "bad" habit of just browsing through KC books - the guilty ones are here: the editors of the Bhagavatam said that you can start with any volume as the book is "sweet" everywhere.]
He speaks with authority - it's undeniable (his commentary on the Gita is ubiquitous). It's just that I'm like oil and water when it comes to authority (and not mentioning the fact that I have loads and loads of other problems with most religions).
"go and check out your nearest Iskcon temple"
I'm afraid I'm a bit of all the following: misanthrope, nihilist, anarchist, atheist, individualist, egoist and most importantly anti-groups of any kind (I guess I am a proper asura). So I prefer to check things out from a distance first, through books and the internet - and this process can take years...
I have two more things to say:
first, I'm sorry I'm citing so much - this is the way my mind works: sentence-wise and even word by word. Most of the time I feel I cannot give a coherent response otherwise.
last but not least, thank you very much for your welcome!
Don't miss out
http://vedabase.net/
http://vedabase.net/sb/en
I know about vedabase but
I know about vedabase but there's no purport e.g the actual text of Sri Isopanisad is one page - so I guess I'm still missing out.
But still thank you very much - I have browsed through but one thing bothers me - why is the Brahma-samhita incomplete?
I was responding to this bit : )
"but I'm missing out on the multi-volume works like the Bhagavatam" The entire Bhagavatam and it's purports are there
The purports to Isopanishad are there, click on the first part of the text where is says ISO 1: etc.
That will take you to a page like this:
http://vedabase.net/iso/1/en
It's actually best to start at the beginning so you read along in context
Thank you very much. It's
Thank you very much. It's embarrassing, but I didn't know that.
I did the same thing when I first went there
: )
no prob
Just click on the 'Iso #'.
Thanks, thanks, I guess I
Thanks, thanks, I guess I was on substance abuse while visiting those pages.
Hey
Hare krishna,
1. ISKCON is a place where devotees of Krishna can meet to talk, meet, sing, dance, read, eat together and serve Krishna.
2. I came to choose Krishna consciousness because it satisfied what I was looking for in a religion, namely, knowledge and wisdom, singing and dancing, great food (prasadam), happy people, and an answer.
All right, I understand what
All right, I understand what ISKCON is, but I find the second part of your answer unsatisfying: why is it that, if you seek some desirable attributes in your religion/way of life, and you find them in a specific religion, then how does that make that religion automatically true?
The truth of the pudding is in the eating
If truth exists, then there must a system which understands truth. Religion is this system. As there are many systems, there are as many religions. A system is praised for its efficiency. If a system is 100% efficient then it is known as a fool proof system. If a system is not 100% efficient then it is known as a faulty system. The Hare Krishna system is one which if followed to the end guarantees 100% success. I see Hare Krishna as a process. if you follow the process through to the end you are guaranteed success. This has to be done practically. In my experience the more I do the Hare Krishna process, the more truth becomes manifest within my life. However, if I was not to do it, then, well, I would not have that truth would I?
The truth of the pudding is in the eating.
If you want to know the Hare Krishna truth for yourself then you have to at least bite the cake. If you have not tasted then that Hare Krishna truth will not display itself. It remains hidden. So you have to taste. And the way of doing this is by following the system. Then you can taste the truth for yourself, not otherwise. Follow the process by inquring from a spiritual master, then the truth will automatically reveal itself.
Hare Krishna!
Thank you for your
Thank you for your answer.
However I must tell you that I've heard this one before - anything from Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, various Indian "missions", to the Bahá'ís, Ahmadiyyas, etc. They all say that:
"The truth of the pudding is in the eating."
They all have that inner conviction that the path that they are following is the right one - and they will not hesitate to affirm it, as you did - "The Hare Krishna system is one which if followed to the end guarantees 100% success."
Understand that I am but a limited being in an incredibly complex and confusing world - I have only one life and you will agree that the chance of human life is not one that I would like to misuse or squander. I know I am being sarcastic, but I must ask:
Must I taste all possible puddings in order to find the tastiest one?
testing
Sure, everyone claims his pudding is the best. And some people, esp. inquisitive types, do taste as many as they can.
But there're objective tests as well. If you read the Gita you'll learn about symptoms of a sadhu. So you can evaluate followers of various paths from this point of view.
In the Gita you'll also learn about gunas and how everything in this world can be classified acc to them, including various teachings. Another classification of spiritual paths is related to karma, jnana and bhakti, again described in the Gita.
So stick to the Gita and you won't regret it. It contains the essence of Upanisads, the most philosophically advanced type of sastras.
All the best and welcome.
Thank you for your comments.
Thank you for your comments. In fact I find the Gita a very interesting book (though I haven't read it from cover to cover - I tend to browse through and read texts at random). Yes, I have learned about the gunas and I guess I am in the mode of ignorance.
:)
Very good. Admission of ignorance is the first step in receiving knowledge.
This would have ended the
This would have ended the thread beautifully - but I'm a bit of the questioning type. You say "receiving knowledge", sure I'll admit my ignorance, but that does not mean I cannot find out truths by my own means - why do we have to receive knowledge, for this implies a giver of knowledge and hence an authority. I do not have much problems with authorities but I do take issue with unquestionable authorities - like the ones you've got in all religions...
aroha, avaroha
You can find knowledge to some extent on your own, inductively (aroha). The higher knowledge can be obtained from someone who has it, by deduction (avaroha). Some of this higher knowledge can be realized, some not. Trust in the authority is essential. Therefore there're prescribed checks how to find out genuine authority (guru). Guru can be and should be questioned when he (apparently) deviates. How to do it properly is also described.
If you're interested in Vedic epistemology, I recommend Suhotra Swami's book Substance and Shadow.
"Guru can be and should be
"Guru can be and should be questioned when he (apparently) deviates. How to do it properly is also described."
This is news to me - I was under the impression gurus were infallible -something very off-putting for me.
And thank you for your book recommendation, I have gone to his site and the book seems interesting.
What is ISKCON about,
What is ISKCON about, basically it is a society to become conscious of Krishna.
Bhakti you can find in various tradition, some traditions deal with it in a more elaborate fashion and some just cover the basics.
This is a hello thread, so I
This is a hello thread, so I would not like to get into controversies but I will just say to you that I've got an open mind and would like to know more about your faith. My father had a Bhagavad Gita, the old BBT edition, I read parts of it and found it really interesting and with many powerful instructions. I may not believe in a personal deity as you do, but still, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that there is a lot of wisdom to be gained from the scriptures, even for a materialist.
Btw: do you know how I can change my profile picture?
Hare Krishna.. Forget about
Hare Krishna..
Forget about all religions...try ur best to explore your own faith..u'll find God loves u very much...and good u r reading Bhagavad Gita, it has everything in it.
to change ur profile pic, go to edit - account settings on your account and upload pic there.
I am only a student in this world, pls correct me wherever required.
Hare Krishna..
Thank you very much. I've
Thank you very much.
I've certainly forsaken all religions early on in my life - they just didn't make sense. As for finding my own faith - here is how it happened: first I rejected all religions and believed in a sort of impersonal god. Then, as my knowledge increased and also through personal experience, I decided I was in fact an agnostic (as I wrongly understood the word at the time) i.e. that I don't know whether God exists or not. As time went on, I found that I was living my life exactly as if God did not exist - so I decided that for all practical purposes, I was an atheist. But that does not mean my position is permanent - it may change since I am still searching for the absolute truth if such a thing exists. Without such a quest, life seems devoid of any meaning.
"Without such a quest
"Without such a quest, Life seems devoid of any meaning"
You have a spiritual desire! This is what brings true mercy from God.
Most organized religion in the age of Kali has no real spiritual desire, only the desire to learn the complexity of organization. This was something fabricated to repair a lost connection with God - but the real connection is simply your personal desire for the spiritual world!
Haribol
Oh, I would not call it a
Oh, I would not call it a spiritual desire but more as an unquenchable thirst for knowledge!
That's great...
My advice: Question and Question more...being inquisitive is great (That's how I started and I guess most of us, right)...question all aspects of Life and everything you see around....the nature of beings...and the mystery of you being you in the mirror... at 5 and yet at 20 too!.....question...and question more...till you seem somewhere satisfied with the answers.....I'm sure the Holy BG and SB can answer anything and everything ....either in a direct or indirect way :-)
But yes, never in haste.....slow and patient....quote by quote...word by word...purport by purport...dive in it and taste the sweet nectar!
If it's question of choosing a religion, then compare the answers with any other text in the world....and then ask your heart...what do you feel really answers and satisfies you? Hare Krsna!
well then
you are certainly in the right place!
Haribol