Last night Republican Presidential (USA) candidate Mitt Romney was asked to clarify his position as a Mormon, and I think he gave a perfecly respectable (and respectful!) reply about not favoring any one religion. I can't really quote him verbatim, but it sounded like he has a pretty good attitude.
What I found a bit surprising was the fact that he needed to offer such clarification in the first place! Isn't this the land where we separated Church from State?! I can't imagine the US public being so un-adult that a candidate's Christianity is a serious issue!
After reading Srila Prabhupada's views on world leaders (I think there's a whole section on this in Science of Self Realization) I keep thinking, I wish there would someday be a Krishna Conscious candidate, NOT because I favor that faith (which, in fact I do), but because of the wisdom and superior morality you find within a devotee. To have a candidate that would make decisions based on what our land needs, rather than on how he or she can best be remembered in history books! To have a candidate who leaves his or her false ego aside, at least when it comes to decision making. What a blessing that would be!
So, if anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them! :)
religious coment from candidate.
Doug Casey: Much of the politicking this campaign season has certain religious overtones. Are you a believer in a strict separation of church and state?
Congressman Ron Paul: Yes. However, I believe state and local communities have the right to adopt policies such as school prayer without interference from the Federal Judiciary or any other branch of the federal government.
http://www.kitcocasey.com/displayArticle.php?id=1757
What I found a bit
But you must remember this is also the country that has so much religious freedom that the Governor of Missouri issued an extermination order against the Mormons back in the mid 1800's. He said the Mormon insurrection must be stopped. (order was issued in 27OCT1838, later rescinded....25JUN1976 http://www.quaqua.org/extermination.htm)
I live in the belt buckle of the bible belt, almost everyone I know is Baptist. A lot of the guys at work have said many times they would never vote for a Catholic. The Mormons aren't even considered christian so you can bet they would never consider voting for him. Sad but true.
Tuka
Your belief is your belief, your path is your choice, your journey is your own, one cannot walk it with you, nor for you.
--Stanley Victor Paskavich
Serious Issues
I live in the Bible Belt too Tuka,
I'd certainly consider it the very heart of the buckle also.
I am surprised by the fact that you're surprised! :)
Christianity in this country is a very serious issue.
It doesn't seem realistic to me to think that there is actually going to be total separation of Church and State here (or anywhere else for that matter).
That's just my opinion of course.
Navasi
joke
I heard this joke the yesterday from my spiritual master, I thought you all would like it. "How can you tell when a politician is lying?"
"He/She's is moving their lips" (speaking)
joking
that's pretty funny... I've heard that before too...
it's pretty much the truth also... :)
Clarifying Religious Beliefs
Hare Krishna, Dear Dach,
I agree with you, it's pretty surprising that in he'd be having to make any kind of statement about his religions beliefs at all.
However, it does come into play because most religious people are going to want someone in the Government to be representing what they believe in, that's only natural.
What's he going to do when they ask him? He can't exactly hide who he is and what his beliefs are.... (so, yes, that was a good answer I think :)
That's why it's a good thing that we all have a choice who we vote for because everyone is going to be choosing the candidate that fits in as closely with their own beliefs as possible.
Personally, I like knowing about a candidates religions beliefs and feelings, it's such an important part of who they are and how they are going to be as a President.
They are either trying to act with of the Supremacy of God in mind, or they are not.
They are not going to make a very good politician if they favor one particular religious doctrine, at least not in America, so of course it stands to reason that he's saying he doesn't favor any particular one.
Great topic Dach! :)
Love,
Navasi
How Do We Choose, and Who do We Believe?!
Politics are a big fascination for me, especially since I spent all my earlier years avoiding them. My family has always been what I'd loosely describe as fairly liberal Republican. Pretty much middle of the road, really. I have one uncle who was of a working class background, and as a Democrat, he always refered to my mother's family as "cake eaters". I think ALL our decisions were made through pure emotion ... we vote for who we vote for because we are who we are. And like religion, it was prefered that we associate with people "like us".
I got sick of all of it a few years back (I think maybe around the Ross Perot era), and got to really thinking, who do I want, and why do I want. My problem is that I believe that every party has something worthwhile to offer -- without Democrats, our domestic life would suffer, and without Republicans, the economy would suffer (although these days it IS, anyway, with the out of control Big Business world!) I almost became a supporter of the Green party because as long as I'm here in the Material World, I'd be quite happy to keep it as pleasant a place as possible. When they merged with the (?)Rainbow party, I think? The one that focuses on homosexuality, anyway, I became suspicious, not due to any moral judgementalism, not in the least, but because while I see the enviornment as something the government can most definitely have a positive impact on, focusing the law on one's sex life seems to me a little beside the point. Too one sided, too specific.
The worst part is there are so many politicians, of every party, who seem entirely full of baloney. They're starting the name calling and mud slinging already, and it isn't even 2008 yet!
So, I think this time I'll keep what you suggested in mind -- "They are either trying to act with of the Supremacy of God in mind, or they are not." I don't want to see a religious zealot, but if they can convince me that their decisions are being made in the mode of goodness, or even reasonably close, they'll likely get my vote!
Reasonably Close
That's the thing, Dach, no one is going to be doing everything or even anything perfectly, not in today's society.
So, you just have to choose among them the one that seems most in line with the mode of goodness, and does the most beneficial things in general...
And, as you said, trying to pay attention to whether or not they are at least appear (by their behavior and words) to be acting like God is in charge.....
I personally stay an Independent and don't allow myself to get caught up in Republican or Democratic positions because as you said, then you're sort of 'subscribing' to the whole "agenda"...
It's always a balance, between what issues are more important, like you're saying...
Navasi
I don't think Ron Paul is a
I don't think Ron Paul is a bad choice, but, in my opinion, voting for him would be a waste. A republican is not going to win this election, so throwing my support behind one would be a waste of an otherwise useful vote. Even if a Republican does manage to turn the tides, it'd probably be McCain, or, god forbid, Giuliani. As it stands, this race is between Hillary and Obama.
It might feel good and give a warm fuzzy feeling to be voting for someone you feel is doing the right thing, but if that person is unable to affect change, the value of your vote will be purely cosmetic. In other words, it might go so far as to earn your candidate/party new seats if they're lucky, but they'll be trying to push forward their agendas as the opposition (if it's a Republican). They'll have as much success as the opposition as the Democrats have had in the last seven years (ZERO). Of course, if that one person you voted for is able to represent you/your beliefs/culture/religious beliefs/morals effectively... who really cares about the rest of the country eh?
Often it's not a choice between who would be the best, but rather, who is the lesser of two evils. So right now who's worse - Obama or Hillary? And next year who would be worse - the Democrat nominee or the Republican nominee (who is clearly and inarguably not going to be Ron Paul). So for me it wouldn't really be a matter of subscribing to the whole red vs blue thing. One of them will become the most powerful person in the world and head the full power of the US whether I subscribe to it or not. So out of them I'd just want the one that'll come the closest to representing what I want.
Haribol
I don't think
that voting on the basis of principle is (or would be:) a waste in any circumstance, particularly this one.
The global social situation currently includes an increasing number of local crises in terms of water availability, food production, effects of changing climate patterns, oil availability issues, and a whole raft of attendant social consequences. It's a really interesting time, with the sheer weight of largely environmentally-driven geo-political (think geology) change meaning that the various vested 'interests' have more motivation (read: desperation) than ever before to grasp what they can while they can... we can see the clear trend towards authoritarianism in the US (and UK), as the pendulum swings right back from those 'way-out' '50s/'60s/'70s.
And yet, at the same time, a 72-year- old OB-GYN who has been standing up alone, more or less, to defend the Constitution for the last 30 years or so is right now being heard and appreciated en masse.
I for one applaud Ron Paul and his cool message of liberty, and wish him all the best, even if only on the basis that he *isn't* a liar or thief. Sure, he is a patriot (probably no-one ever told him "that's bogus, prabhu"), but a sane one, who bases his patriotism squarely on the Constitution.
I feel certain that a significantly positive change in US and world popular consciousness would follow if he were somehow elected... "yad yad acarati sresthas..."
Let's see what happens...
Hare Krishna.
But that's exactly what I
But that's exactly what I mean, he ISN'T going to be elected. I'm so sure of that that if he somehow manages to become the next president of the US, I will personally eat my cotton pants in front of you, digest it forcibly, and then wash it down with laundry detergent in the hope that they will stay fresh and clean even within my innards.
It's definitely nice to vote on principle. It feels good and it's probably the right thing to do. But if it counts for nothing in the ultimate scheme of things, then, to me, it's a complete waste. Throwing support behind someone who's doing the right thing is not enough. That person needs to be powerful or popular enough to affect the change they speak of. In my mind at least, he has no real power. He's finished once the presidential campaign is over.
Don't get me wrong, I can see exactly why you would want to vote for him. He seems like an individual of good judgment and sound morals. However, he hasn't got the means to put his words into actions. I'm more inclined towards the candidates who might not talk the same talk, but can walk their walk. I guess I'm not much of an idealist.
yeah, but....
Hare Krishna
In this comment I am assuming that Dr. Paul is the most principled candidate (by a long, long way).... (btw, this reply is not about Ron Paul specifically)
To me the main question here is one of principles, and how we choose to uphold them. For me that means lending my support to those who stand for them. Leaving those principles aside on the basis that my vote should be 'powerful' seems really morally weak. It shows that i think that the so-called power of my vote is worth more than the principles I claim to support, and that basically I just want to be on the winning side, principles be damned.
At the risk of being hypocritical, Simplicity is Vaisnavism. Politics (duplicity) has no place in Vaisnava life. Principle is everything.
To my understanding, voting is a kind of association, and as such reflects an aspect of the only true freedom I have as a conditioned soul. To waste it on some candidate who is a liar and a cheat, even though a so-called 'winner', is against everything I have learned from this Movement.
Hare Krishna.
Voting On Principles
I'm really tempted to vote for him too, J, just on the off chance that you might have to do this... lol
Of course you must put it on Youtube as Krishnaowned said! :)
I have to agree with you about what you're saying about voting on principle alone.... (not that I particularly want to agree with you about anything right now... lol :) (just kidding) :)
What's the point if he has no actual power, better to support someone who's going to make it in, I think.
I'm not making any statement as to if he has that chance or not, because that's not what I want to comment on.
I do however want to say that I agree entirely that we need to support someone who has the chance of getting elected, or else we are wasting out vote.
Hare Krishna! :)
Navasi
:D
Maybe I'll vote for him, just to see you do this! Lol! (You'll put it on Youtube, naturally!)
Patriotism
I'm a patriot too, and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Not that you are saying there is, of course, I'm only just commenting ...
After all, so many of our rights to be devotees here in this country are based on our American Constitution.
Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech.
That's the First Amendment.
So, I support that and I support our country.
Not that I think that America is the only important place in the world, or even the most important place, certainly not.
I act on the concept that the world as a whole is important and I also financially support programs to help people in other countries, my particular favorite being India. (FFL)
However, since I live in America, and that is the country that is giving me the rights and freedoms to live as a devotee, in my own home safely, regardless of who thinks what about it, I am especially appreciative of this country.
Just some thoughts anyway.....
I'll get off my soap box now... lol :)
Navasi
Dual Citizenship
Hare Krishna, J,
Do you have dual citizenship?
Just curious about how you're voting in America...
Just Curious. That's All.
Thank you,
Navasi
I don't and I'm not
Don't have dual and I'm not voting in the US. I was careful to use the word 'would' wherever I could to show what I WOULD be doing if I was there. Didn't mean to mislead you.
Thank you!
That's great J, thanks for the clarification on this.
I think it's great that you're paying so much attention to what's going on in another country.
Being conscious of the entire world and the fact that what one country does (especially America) affects the rest of the world is important I think.
I'm not saying that America should or should not have an "especially" affect on everyone else, it's just that I think most would agree that it does.
I appreciate your comments, J, thank you.
Even Prabhupad said that if American's took up Krishna consciousness then it would affect other countries taking it up.
I don't have a quote for this, maybe someone else might.
Navasi
sure
whatever, I'm in Australia anyway. God help us all.
lol
same here prabhu. I'm in Sydney. How about you?
hey
Australians all let us rejoice
________________________________________
Visit the Food Channel @ Krishna.com
Hey Yourself...
Come on, Antony....
You're not that body....
You're not Australian and neither are they .... lol
I'm not American either....
Navasi :)
but
we can still rejoice : )
________________________________________
Visit the Food Channel @ Krishna.com
Sure!
Just rejoice that you're not that body :)
You're Sure Right about the Dems!
And today Obama was backed by one of the most influential Americans around, Oprah Winfrey. So, Clinton got the best backing she has available to her -- her husband! That's going to be the most interesting contest we've had in years. When you consider, the USA has never had a non-white president, nor has it ever had a non-male president, any white male will really have to push to get in line with those two.
As far as any candidate goes, it's so hard to figure out who has what to offer. I went through my romantic phase where I voted for who I thought would do the best job. One election, everyone I knew voted for Perot, so many that it got me wondering, is it the type of people I associate with, or did he really get more popular votes than I'd have expected?
Anyway, I absolutely think that yes, a good morality based on love and respect for God (no matter what name you prefer!) is critical ... on the other hand, I'd shy away from any candidate who was too dogmatic, and fundamentalism of any kind puts me off. That My God Is Better Than Your God attitude ... not in office, no thanks! Can a candidate be both rational and spiritual, both God loving and society loving? I think that's what I'd be inclined to look for!
Ron Paul? (Who is that?)
I reckon Ron Paul is the best candidate, mainly because he promotes adherence to the Constitution and doesn't push agendas of his own. To me this means that he is faithful to a higher principle, i.e. the Constitution. While that isn't suddha-bhakti, at least it shows some genuine strength of character.
His voting record in Congress over the last twenty years or so is also totally consistent. He has good, commonsense policies to do with personal liberty based on Constitutional rights.
I read an essay of his from 2002, where he says that the first amendment is related to secularism in government only, not the rest of US society, e.g. schools, etc.
Take a look though http://www.ronpaul2008.com and see for yourself...
Thanks For the Intro!
I sheepishly admit, I had to agree with your "Who Is That?" topic. So I took a look at the site, and he does sound very good! I need to look everyone over more carefully (and we DO have time!), but on the surface, he looks like a good one!
Interesting...
Thank you, Subalkrishna Das,
It's very interesting to hear what candidates other devotees find to be good choices.
Thank you for the website link.... I've had a look at it, and I'll continue to watch him more closely now that you've pointed all this out. :)
Love,
Navasi
Srila Prabhupada
Was very happy when in the 70's devotees ran for office under the party name "In God We Trust" If the leader is Good then all shall follow. Bhagavad-gita As It Is 3.21
ys
ncd