This is a post make by Tekisui in the japa forum. I thought it was something that would be good to create a new thread here for.
It's such an interesting topic. The ways that we "transfer" our desires onto others in the form of "the desire to please".
I'm posting my thoughts about it to her, I hope others will post their thoughts too.
Navasi
~~~~
"Perfectionism isn't necessarily about pleasing oneself, though, at least not directly.
For me, it's as if I have an "inner audience" - mostly made up of my former "friends" and enemies that scoffs at every mistake I make - as it actually happened when I was still around those people who are now present in my mind as memories, but still powerful. And if anything, I am trying to please that "inner audience". Which, however, is impossible to please - just as those people were impossible to please in real life, no matter what I did, they found something to scorn.
I've noticed only now how I feel like a victim to those old "friends" and enemies - and that when I chant and study, I am actually trying to get these people's approval, not Krishna's.
I can even catch myself thinking that I first need to get these people's approval (who weren't even Vaishnavas!), if I am to be elligble for Krishna's approval.
Which is possibly why all my striving to keep to the rules only produced a meagre, grim result.
I know - this is all very twisted, yet it is also true.
So given my karmic predisposition, I think I should from now on always ask myself "Whom am I really trying to please? What do I think would make me elligible for Krishna's approval?"
And sure, there is the desire to please oneself mixed into all this too, but like I said earlier - but it's not necessarily the only one. So one might be wrong to seek the cause only in one's own desires, for there could be the desires of other people mixed in too.
Strangely, I have struggled with these issues a lot, for years, but I have never made the connection until just now.
Thank you good souls!
I suppose those who haven't been engaged in much "spiritual warfare" with other people and especially with people from other religious/spiritual paths aren't all that familiar with this phenomenon. I am really glad for those! :) It's not worth trying, take my word for it."
Tekisui
The Desire To Please Others
This is really interesting Tekisui.
You analyze things so deeply. It's great.
The thing here is that it's "your" desire to please these people. So, it's still "your desire". It's not Krishna's desire, it's your desire.
Do you see what I mean?
Yes, you are trying to please them, please their desires, get their approval.... but still, it is your desire to do that.
That's why I said "please our own mind, senses, whatever" because desire that is separate from Krishna takes all kinds of forms, some very subtle, like this one, that you recognized is not "directly" about your desires.
But really, it is your desire. You desire their approval. Desire/need/want it's all the same thing really.
It's totally natural for us to desire to please others and have their approval. That desire to please comes from the soul, it always wants to serve Krishna (please Him) and the approval that we seek is really the reciprocation that we need from Krishna when we please Him.
In the material world (or material consciousness, to whatever degree we still have it) then we seek to please others, and get the reciprocation of that pleasing/service in their approval.
What you experience is not at all twisted in the sense that it happens to everyone. We bring this need/desire that we have misdirected from Krishna into our spiritual lives. We find others that we feel we have to please, and gain approval from in order to be worthy of serving Krishna. Like you said. Everyone does this to one degree or another. (feeling we have to is just a less obvious form of our own desire, we feel that need. Need is desire).
The problem comes when you attempt to please the wrong people who don't have pure motives about you. The nature of the material world is everyone finds fault with everyone else. So, people will hurt you and you never are able to please them.
If your chanting and reading is wrapped up in that, then it's going to seriously affect your practices, as you're saying. This happens to so many people.
Even with devotees, they might get attached to pleasing some certain devotee who they feel is advanced and can help them, then if that person falls short of the what they need, or falls from the path, or some of their material conditioning causes them to be unkind, that person is so affected.
We are still going to want to please other devotees, and gain their approval. That's okay, since they are devotees, and we all interact with each other and relationships with devotees are an important aspect of our relationship with Krishna. We just have to be careful that we're not ONLY seeking their approval, or that the desire to please is not fixed on one person, or certain few persons, and that we keep in mind that they are just other conditioned souls on the same path we are, and we don't expect them to be perfect.
It's so good what you said there, your final conclusion:
"Whom am I really trying to please? What do I think would make me elligible for Krishna's approval?"
That's excellent. I can't even tell you how many times I've had to ask myself these exact questions. I think most of us could benefit from asking ourselves this all the time. I actually try to ask myself that first question as much as possible about anything I do.
Aside from directing our attention to Krishna, it's a good way to stay aware of when we are doing things for our own motives (whether they are direct or indirect).
Don't want to get too worried about that either though... perfectly pure motives are a long way off for most of us.
It's good if we can get to the point of being able to focus on our chanting and reading and experience Krishna there, instead of how we might be pleasing someone else, or gaining their approval.
When I'm struggling over something, I ask myself "why do I do this".... "why am I doing this"... "why do I want to do this".... about anything, chanting, getting up early... whatever.
When you really examine it, inside, if you can find a place where you "want to", rather than feel you "have to", I have found that's a much stronger place to be.
*I realize you've already sorted out most of this and you're saying so in your post. I'm discussing my thoughts about it with you because lots of people have this problem.... and also (lol) I "wanted to" talk about it. It really helped me a lot too, to think about this and talk to you about it.
Thank you.
: )
Navasi
"Will this please Krishna?"
HAre Krishna!
Another question that one can ask before one does anything is, "Will this please Krishna?" It can be anything like buying c particular type of clothes or cooking food to taking some serious decissions in life. if the answer to this question is yes, one can happily and freely go ahead with it. If the answer is no, then there is some problem with the act or the desire.
This is how I introspect myself. The desire might be or might not be mine. Waht is important is whether it gives pleasure to Krishna. There are times when you want to do something which will not give pleasure to Krishna (because of our karmic state).In such situation, I feel our devotion is tested. Whether we still go ahead and do it or just give it up because Krishna will not like it. The degree to which one can give up for Krishna desires and pleasure will depend on how advanced one is.
Another point is to know what will please Krishna, we will have to take shelter of a Guru or at least some senior, sincere devotee who could guide us well.
Haribol!
Snehal
Will This Please The Guru?
That's a good point, Snehal, about doing things that will please Krishna, and asking ourselves that question about all the things we do.
I have a hard time with trying to figure out what would please Krishna directly though, well, at least when it comes to most things.
For example, I am in the store to buy some fruit for an offering to Krishna. There are apples and oranges. Both are very nice. I can only get one. Which one would Krishna like most? How to decide?
Well, I have no idea whether Krishna would want me to buy the apple or the orange. Krishna only wants the devotion, as far as I know....
So how, on a practical level how will I decide if I should buy the apple or the orange?
If on the other hand, I think of what would please Srila Prabhupad, then it becomes very simple. Well, first, I would know to look at cost, because Srila Prabhupad taught us to never waste Laxmi (money).
If they cost the same amount, then what? Well, I then know that Srila Prabhupad would say "don't waste time deciding, just choose one and get on with your service" :)
So, I would quickly select one of them and give it no more thought.
Of course that's a really simple example, but for me it applies to just about everything.
So, I agree, understanding the instructions of the guru, the mood of the guru, and what would please the guru, gives us the ability to please Krishna.
If I try to understand what Krishna would want on my own, I find it becomes incredibly confusing. What would Krishna want? What would please Krishna???
What I do know, is that Krishna is pleased by devotion, and He is most pleased when I please Srila Prabhupad.
: ) : ) : )
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, very interesting.
Navasi
Keeping devoted
Hare Krishna!
You have very well pointed out that devotion is what pleases Krishna. When you do something out of love and devotion, like in the example put forward by you. (whether to buy oranges or apples) whatever you buy apples or oranges it is ultimately going to please Krishna and guru. So asking this question (Will this please Krishna and guru?) to yourselves will give an affirmative answer.Asking this question in situations like these where devotion and love is already present might further bring confusion.
This question is helpful to keep us devoteed to Krishna and focus on KC. Like for example I have some free time. I can watch TV or I can read Bhagvatum. If I decide to watch TV the answer to the question "Will this please Krishna and Guru?" is obvisiously no. But if decide to read Bhagvatum and I ask same question to myself the answer is going to be yes and in this way I am trying to keep myself focused on Krishna and KC.
Another example can be focusing while chanting. Its not uncommon for mind to wander during chanting. So when you ask this question in this situation, the answer is again no. So you will try to focus on remaining rounds to please Krishna.
Of course these are some simple situations/examples. There will be times in our life when things wont be so simple. But generally this is how I try to remain focused asking this question every day in every act I do. This helps me to bring my best out. Afterall I am trying to please KRISHNA!
Haribol!
Snehal
Times In Our Lives.....
Dear Snehal,
I think you have hit on the main point here. It's really about who you are, and where you are in your life, and in your spiritual development.
It's not possible really to generalize this into something that applies to everyone. For you, this is the way you remember to please Krishna, and what ever accomplishes that is what is important.
For me, things are more complex. Here's an example:
You left a comment in my guest book saying that this discussion was getting interesting, and that you left me a comment.
So, I take that to mean it would be helpful to you in some way if I read it and perhaps comment on what you've said.
Now, should I answer your comment, or perhaps write a blog instead? How much do you really need to have me comment on this? Would it benefit others also? Would the blog I might write instead perhaps be more beneficial? Perhaps I should not write anything at all, and instead spend time on some of the other projects I'm working on that are devotional projects I'm attempting to complete to help other devotees.....
When you are making choices between obvious material engagement, and obvious spiritual engagement, it's is a very clear choice.
Later, things do become more complex, when you are trying to make decisions between different ways to serve Krishna, please Krishna, or please your spiritual master, which is really the same thing as pleasing Krishna.
Well, I know Krishna is most pleased when we serve His devotees, but then it becomes hard to know what the greater service is. (at least all the time) I know also that my own cultivation of my spiritual life is essential, since I'm of no use to anyone if I am not strong spiritually. So, then I also have to consider if some extra reading or studying or chanting would be the best thing to do, since then perhaps I would be more helpful to others, and thus serve them better.
I'm don't mean to confuse the issue here, but things really do get more complex as your choices become more and more about "please Krishna in this way? or please Krishna in that way?".
That's the reason I used the example of the two fruits and how Krishna really only wants the devotion, and it's not that we could know if He would rather have an apple or an orange.
The way I've resolved this is by trying to understand deeply the mood of my spiritual master, and his desires. Then, I also understand that both he and Krishna want what is best for me also. So, I try to balance all the things while keeping that perspective.
It also helps me to remember that Krishna wants our devotion, wants us to be engaged in serving Him and thinking of Him. All the details of that serving and thinking are (to me) really about what engages us more deeply in a relationship with Him. The particular ways are not as important to Krishna, as the "becoming engaged" is.
Those are my thoughts about this.
Hare Krishna,
Navasi
Pleasing, and all that comes with it
Hi, Navasi, and thank you for posting this. :) I am glad if my contribution is helpful.
Regarding the topic - I think we seek to please because we think doing so would be best for us. And of course, it makes a world of difference whom and what we are trying to please; and who we think we are.
I think we must be careful here, though, when reaching out to other people about this topic - some people might be coming from very abusive backgrounds where their desire to please has been severely abused and twisted. They might simply feel like victims in all this, and for them to see their part in those abusive relationships can be a matter of re-living the traumas again. And this can be counterproductive, at least at some point in their lives.
They might simply be thinking "Me pleasing them?! They made me do it! I had no other choice! If I wouldn't do as they said, they would beat me or throw me out!"
There is also the more contrived suffering of psychological and spiritual abuse which is much harder to put into words, but in some ways, this abuse is stronger and its effects more long-lasting than of the physical one.
Both are rampant today.
Moreover, in this age of impersonalism, we not only try to please living beings, but also abstract ideas; for example, trying to live up to some impersonal ideal of pacifism or humanism or wisdom or coolness or GPA and so on. And we don't even consider ourselves the beneficiaries of all this striving - because it's all so impersonal.
Impersonalism, in its variations, also leads us to think that is not we who are desiring something, it all seems "simply as it truly is - there is no person, no self". Hearing that we are the ones desiring things - for some of us, this is a foreign doctrine that yet needs to be accepted. For some of us, "free will" is still a rather exotic notion, some "epiphenomenon" and nothing real.
In relation to impersonalism are some particular theistic ideas about what God is like. Some of us have spent many years trying to please a more or less non-descript G/god.
To say nothing of trying to please a vengeful, wrathful G/god to whom we are nothing but numbers (who deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity anyway).
This is the sort of baggage some of us have when we come to Krishna Consciousness. This baggage can be very subtle, but affecting nonetheless the way we approach practice.
But one more thing about the desires of others and how they affect us: It is said that miseries in the material world are threefold: 1 miseries from the body and mind; 2. miseries from others; 3. miseries from nature. Do "miseries from others" not include psychological and spiritual manipulation that others might subject us to? Simply reading sentences like "Dogs usually have six legs" or "2 + 2 = 5" or "Now you should stay inside and go out" or "God will torture you in hell for all eternity if you don't do as I say, so beware" causes the mind at least some frustration, and we suffer at such things because we identify with the mind, not because we'd try to please anyone - no? Judging by my experience, other people can affect me with their desires and make me suffer simply because they exploit my desire to be good, honest and reasonable - and it has nothing to do with me trying to please them, at least so it seems to me.
The Complications Of Desire
Hi Tekisui :)
It's true, the complexities and complications of desire, and all the things that arise from them and are related to them is a vast topic.
We're not only dealing with the desires we have, but also the results of those desires. We're not only dealing with immediate desires, and immediate results, we're also dealing with desires and their results from many, many lifetimes.
It becomes a complicated and entangling topic. Karma is of course difficult (or rather, impossible) to unravel.
I think another reason the subject of abuse as it relates to desire, is difficult for most of us, is because it appears that we are "casting blame" on the abused person. It appears that we are saying the abused person is "responsible" for the abuse.
That's of course very touchy, and I do agree about that.
I think it helps to give people back their own power when we talk about desire as it relates to abuse. Perhaps we can understand we must have had some desire, that lead to some action, that then lead to this abuse, at some point in time, somehow.
Okay, that's said and done. Nothing can change the past. What we can change is the present. We can always and only change the present.
Then the person being abused will say "but I can't make them stop".... well, perhaps they can't. It's usually true, sad to say.
That person still has free will and choice, even then. What choice do they have? They can make a choice what they do with the experience. They can use that experience to make them stronger spiritually. If they take shelter of Krishna, and use the experience to further their spiritual advancement, to bring them closer to Krishna, they are no longer the victim, but the victor.
Not only have they overcome the power of that situation, but they have escaped the cycle. Of course that's far easier said than done. And it's also very important that everyone takes responsibility for their own behavior and society as a rule takes responsibility for the members of it and their behavior.
I agree that desire is a very abstract concept and none of us (or most of us) even begin to understand how much our own desires affect everything that happens to us. It's really very personal, but we don't see that, we've projected it so far away, and onto all these other forms, like you're saying. It's so far removed we don't even have to acknowledge that it belongs to us at all.
It's incredible when you think about it how much effort we generally put into "assigning" our desires to someone else, or something else. It makes us feel less responsible for our own lives, our own behavior, and the outcome of it.
Sometimes people get tired of all that "assigning" though, and they finally decide they would rather become responsible for their desires, and all the complications, that come with that responsibility. Then, when they do, they also discover the rewards of being responsible for their own desires, rather than "assigning" them to someone or something else.
About the last point: "miseries from others":
Yes, psychological and spiritual abuse does come under the category of "miseries from others" but, like you said, it's one of the sufferings we are subjected to as a result of being in the material world.
Why are we in the material world? Because of our desire.
So, whether we suffer from it because of identifying with the mind, rather than because of trying to please someone, it is still brought about in the first place because of our desire.
It's true we're all affected by the desires of others and that we sometimes suffer as a result of the desires of other people. We're all entangled in a huge cycle of complication of action, and re-action, interaction, etc...
But still, it's all based on desire. So, when we're taking about spiritual life, the best way to understand all this is to at least focus as much of our energy and desire (and desire is energy) on doing whatever we can to desire to please Krishna, serve Krishna, love Krishna.
Krishna is the source of all desire, and the resting place of all our desires.
: )
Yes, your comments are always helpful, they challenge me so much and give me the chance to look at things more deeply and I love that.
Thank you :)
Hare Krishna,
Navasi
Secondary desires
Greetings.
I don't really have much to add or comment to what you've said.
In summary, the way I understand Vaishnava philosophy, the desires that we have are mostly "secondary desires", that is, desires that arise simply due to our entanglement with material nature. As opposed to the desire to enjoy separately from Krishna, which can be called a "primary desire".
These secondary desires (such as "I want to watch tv, I want to eat chocolate, I want to take a nap, I want to dye my hair ... I want to be an architect, I want to live in South America ...") are not about who we really are, as they are contingent upon our circumstances/karma. So I think it's no wonder they feel so removed from us, or we from them, and that it is difficult to take responsibility for them.
Removed Desire
Hi Tekisui :)
I agree.
: )
The entire scope of desire, and how far removed it is from us, and how it came about is endless.
I agree that the secondary desires are only "helpless" manifestations of the modes of nature, karma, circumstance, etc.. (not who we really are at all)
In other words, we are not in control of any of it. We don't "choose" to desire certain things, we are forced always into various situations. (and various desires as a result of those situations) (and then various further situations as a result of those situations) Which then creates further desires as a result.
*I know that sounds confusing, if it "sounds" confusing, just think how confusing the cycle of action and reaction is.
For devotees, we can at least now begin to make choices about some of these things, to the best of our ability. We can ~start~.
"A Journey Of A Thousand Miles Begins With One Step"
It's true we've been being helplessly "cast about" in the material world and thought we desired so many things, and then experienced the pains and pleasures of those desires, without even having a clue what it was all about.
Now, however, we do have the chance to begin to make choices about the some of these desires (at least ones we are aware of).
Responsibility for desires is not an option for everyone, and it has not been an option for any of us prior to taking shelter of Krishna.
Some people think they are responsible for their desires, and they may become more responsible individuals on a material level, but because they are still controlled by the modes of nature (i.e. circumstance/karma) they are not actually in a position to truly take responsibility for their desires. Nor are their desires about who they truly are, as you pointed out, they are only "acquired desires" meaning they are taken on by the soul as a result of association with the modes of nature.
*Meaning, yes, they are in fact helpless.
Only a person who engages her/his desires in the service of Krishna is in a position to begin taking responsibility for their own desires. That happens by making choices about the obvious desires that we have, and what to do with them, to the best of our ability.
We obviously (pardon the pun) can't do anything about the desires that are not obvious, but we can do something about the desires that are obvious.
Ultimately, desire is a vast subject, and as you've said, our desire is totally removed from us as souls, and are not about who we really are at all.
Even still, if we now take those desires, whatever they are, and engage them to the best of our ability in the service of Krishna, then we are taking responsibility a genuine way.
:)
Hare Krishna,
Navasi