Hare Krishna Mataji!!!!! :-))))) How are you? I missed you, so thought I would send u a wall post. My holidays are going good, I am busy working hard for my summer internship (also thinking of Krishna at the same time). Needed your exact definition of fanatism - i mean when do u know that you are being fanatic? Like is hearing and talking of Krishna alone (95% of the time atleast) considered fanatism? This also includes giving up your desires for your previous material attachments or interests like hearing a particular music band, etc??
Awaiting for your reply
Love,
Shweta
Hare Krishna, Dear Shweta,
First, I'm sorry it took me so long to answer this. Thank you for your patience.
Okay, about fanaticism.
First, lets look at the dictionary definition. Being overly enthusiastic about something, over zealous.
When we look at the fact that being in the material world is not at all where we belong or will ever be happy (to put it mildly) then it's hard to say that any devotee is being fanatic by being "overly enthusiastic or over zealous" about anything to do with Krishna.
Rather, we are being fanatic to think that there is some meaning here to our material enjoyments and attachments.
On a practical level, (and I realize that's what you're asking about) I have a few thoughts on what it means to me. "My definition" as you have asked for.
To me, being fanatical is obsessive adherence to some particular thing that you don't actually understand.
It's being narrow minded. Not seeing the "big picture". Obsessive adherence to certain rules and regulations without understanding the purpose behind them.
Excessive attachment or focus on one aspect of the philosophy without understanding the entire philosophy.
A need to influence others to your way of thinking and becoming hostile when they don't follow.
An example of this is someone pressuring someone else to move into the brahmacari ashram, and become a brahmacari when they are not even ready for it. Using the philosophy to tell them they "have to".
Obsessing over smaller issues that really are of little consequence in the scope of becoming Krishna conscious, instead of focusing on the things that really matter (hearing and chanting).
As far as talking about Krishna 95% of the time... I'd say if that person is able to do their devotional service (whatever that is) and still talk about Krishna 95% of the time, it's not fanatical unless they are making it difficult for others to do their service. For example, if you work. If you started talking about Krishna 95% of the time, and thus lost your job and could not support your family, that's fanaticism. Or if you couldn't nurture your children by discussing their problems with them because you could only talk about Krishna, and they were upset about why they couldn't have a new bike this summer. That's being fanatical.
When you talk about attachments to music groups unrelated to Krishna consciousness, and how much to worry about it, and how much trying to give it up would be fanatical, in that case I would say that it's important to do the most you can, but at the same time not become so extreme that you can't maintain it. A lot of people can give up things for a short time, it's doing it for their whole life that's hard. So, you want to understand what you're doing, why you're doing it, and lay down the firm foundation you need to be able to do it. Trying to "jump" ahead and do it without all that it place I would personally consider to be fanatical.
Fanaticism is different for different people, and in different circumstances different things would be fanatical, and other things would not be. So, it's hard to just give a broad statement about it that covers the whole range of what it is, and what it is not.
Mostly, I would say that things have to always be based on understanding why you are doing what you are doing, and keeping the "big picture" in mind at the same time.
That said, unless someone is pressuring someone else, or upsetting someone else with their "fanatical" behavior about Krishna, no amount of Krishna conscious activity is ever "not beneficial" except in the case of over endeavor leading to fall down. That we need to be cautious of.
Maybe some others will have some things to add to this, it's a very interesting topic I think.
;)
Navasi
What is the dose and who is the doctor?
Hare Krishna!
Its really a nice thread and I see lots have been discussed about being over enthusiastic.
The other day I was listening to a lecture and the speaker was telling about how devotees sometimes gave an excuse to Srila Prabhupad saying that its Krishna's mercy and desire that we couldnt complete so and so task and Prabhupad replied saying dont blame Krishna for your less sincere efforts.
So how do we know that whatever we do is just the right dose for our spiritual progress?Of course we need to approach our doctor I mean spiritual master for proper prescription but what if we dont have one?
How about discussing things with instructing guru, if we are not initiated to know what the right dose is?
The Prescription
Haribol Snehal,
The prescription and the dose is basically the same, no matter who you are or if you are initiated.
There are some basic things that apply to everyone.
Sometimes we need a little time to get there, but it's something that we all can know will be the proper prescription and dose.
Chanting 16 rounds a day.
Following the 4 regulative principles.
Studying scripture.
Associating with devotees.
The amounts will vary of course, depending on who you are, but that is the basic prescription and dose.
If you don't have a spiritual master yet (meaning you aren't initiated) then the best thing to do is to endeavor to do these things to the best of your ability.
It's hard I think to find the balance, with our lives the way they are, so many people here don't live near a temple, and are new to Krishna consciousness.
They might read what I just wrote and feel like it's "too huge" to even think of getting there.
That's why it's important to just start where ever you are, and just chant, and read, and associate as much as you can. Things will increase as your desire increases (and this happens from chanting, reading and associating) (Karnamrita and I were just discussing that in the blog section, interestingly enough :)
As far for getting a really specific program for yourself from someone else, yes, your idea of finding an instructing guru is excellent. If you can find someone who is able to give you that kind of instruction, that's a very good idea.
I think that it would be hard for a lot of people to find someone who could do that though, so it's good to use the guidelines I wrote about in my comment at the end of this thread to Jaaaay about over endeavor. That way, if you develop your spiritual life accordingly, you have an understanding of what to do even if you can't find someone to give you personal one-on-one instruction.
As you make progress, it soon will become very important for you to take initiation. Then you will have a spiritual master : )
Navasi
With regard to religion and spirituality
Hare Krishna,
With regard to religion and spirituality, my definition of fanaticism is as follows: Obsession with your own narrow-minded belief systems, sects, deities, etc and a firm yet foolish conviction that you and your deity alone are absolutely correct.
There is a nice story which Swami Vivekananda, the great master and spiritual giant of 19th century India, often used to quote. There once lived a frog in a certain well. He had seen nothing beyond his own little home. He was simply convinced that that was nothing greater than his well. One day, another frog (who had only recently been to the seashore) fell into the well. The two began to chat when the second frog said,
"Friend, have you ever been to the ocean?"
"No, I haven't."
"Well, you must see it someday. It is so vast, so beautiful....."
"Well," said the frog of the well, "surely, it isn't bigger than my well?"
The second frog laughed. "Brother, in comparison to the ocean, your well is just a little puddle of water!"
All at once, the frog of the well flew into a rage. "Liar! How dare you! There is nothing beyond my well! You're just a lying cheat."
Shouting thus, he chased the other frog out.
This amusing tale shows the position of the religious fanatics of the world: Each is stuck in his own well, his own little puddle, be it Hinduism or Christianity or Islam; each thinks his deity alone is the saviour: what a poor, impoverished worldview!!!
-AweStruckAwe
As long as you are practical
As long as you are practical in your enthusiasm, I can't see a problem with it. I'd give anything to be a fanatic for Krishna, haha.
A personal relationship
Thank you ever so much for explaining all this for me. It does clear up some things for me now. When one is in their early stages of devotion, it is imperative that one gets an understanding of this. Because in an initial outburst of over-excitement, one may take to extreme practises which may be 'fanatical'.
Also KC is a very personal thing, its all about developing our personal relationship with Krishna. We need to help people know Krishna but not try to force them to make that personal relationship with him..
Love
Shweta
over-endeavour
Haribol
Navasi: I think it would be very beneficial for everyone if you spoke a little bit about over endeavour - what exactly it is, how to recognise it, how to avoid it, what one should do instead of over endeavouring and so on. I remember once when I emailed you you mentioned the same thing and I don't think we elaborated on it too much. I would love to hear your explanation about it. =) And I think it may link with what Krsna Shweta was saying about initial outbursts of over-excitement leading to the fanatical adoption of extreme practices. Hope you don't mind.
Shooting Stars
Haribol Jaaaay,
I don't mind at all, in fact I am happy to talk to you. :)
It's a complicated subject I guess because it so much depends on the individual, meaning over endeavor would be different depending on who you are.
One thing I think of is the "shooting star" example.
Once Srila Prabhupad told one of his disciples he was like a shooting star, a "big burst of energy, then gone", and warned all of us not to be like "shooting stars". He said he didn't want shooting starts, he wanted moons. The moon keeps on shining, it's not as fantastic a "show" and "display" as a shooting star is, but it lasts, and lasts, and lasts.
So, the shooting star devotee is like that. There's this big "burst" of enthusiasm, all kinds of "effort" to become Krishna conscious, do all the things right, chant all their rounds, follow all the programs, strictly follow all the regulative principles, preach to everyone they can, maybe do some really big, important service, etc...
However, it doesn't last, they can't sustain it, so then, they fall down. They can't maintain that standard at all. So, that's over endeavor, and that's one of the ways it leads to fall down.
We see this all the time in these forums, and it's a good example. Someone comes here, they are new to Krishna consciousness, they are totally enthused about everything, they post a whole lot of things, telling everyone "how to be Krishna conscious". Soon, maybe a few weeks, maybe a few months, they disappear and we never hear from them again. Now, in all fairness, there are lots of reasons people stop posting things here on connect. Of course that doesn't mean they have stopped trying to be devotees. I'm talking about the ones (and I know some) who have just "dropped out" entirely from being devotees, or trying to follow the path of Krishna consciousness.
So that's an example of being a shooting star. (or over endeavor leads to fall down). If they came here and instead of this "huge burst", they read things, thought about them, tried to actually understand, and then APPLY the things they read, they would still be here now, still becoming Krishna conscious. It means taking it a little more slowly, and really applying it, practicing it, studying it.
Another example I have always loved is that of making ghee. Becoming Krishna conscious is like making ghee. If you put the flame on too high, you burn the ghee. That's over endeavor.
In order to make ghee, you MUST put the pot ON this flame. This is hearing and chanting, following the principles, associating with devotees. If you don't even do these things at all, then the purification process can't start.
The impurities will then start to separate. Some will rise to the surface, some will stay on the bottom. If you turn the flame up too high, then you burn the entire pot of ghee and it's ruined. That would be over endeavor and fall down that results.
So, you have to know where to "set the flame" and set it just right.
The way to do that is by understanding what is important. Then, applying that understanding.
We develop the strength to continue the process of purification by chanting 16 rounds a day of japa. This is the most important thing of all. No other service should come before that.
Now you need to associate with devotees and read the scripture in order to understand why you need to chant, to be convinced (and maintain that conviction) that you need to chant 16 rounds a day. You also need to understand the philosophy of Krishna consciousness, in order to be Krishna conscious. That happens through reading (or hearing) and through association. So you have to also include that.
These are the essential things. The first things. The important things. These are the things to endeavor for. It's these things that give us the strength to do other things. It's doing these things that will allow us to "cultivate the higher taste that allows us to give up the lower taste". That's the whole basis of becoming free from material attachments and devoted to Krishna.
Sometimes, people don't understand that, they are enthused, they go to the temple, it's all very exciting, they want to do some "big service" there, something that will "be important" or "mean a lot".... so they "over endeavor".
They may do some very nice service for some time, but they can't maintain it because they are not doing the essential things that we all have to do to keep ourselves strong and making ACTUAL progress, not just "look like we are".
That type of approach to Krishna consciousness would be considered over endeavor and that's the kind of fall down that would result.
There are of course more ways, and more subtle things that can be over endeavor and can also lead to fall down. But this I think is a good basic example of the concept, and the same concept applies to everything.
: )
Hare Krishna, Hare Rama : )
Navasi
This is a great explanation,
This is a great explanation, thanks very much Navasi. There are lots of different examples of over endeavour here to keep as a guide if we ever get into similar situations. It covers a lot of the basics/bases regarding over endeavour so I think it would be helpful for anyone to have a careful read through Navasi's post.
Oh and Prabhupada's shooting star metaphor is just genius. That man is a metaphor machine!
Hare Krishna
: )
You're welcome Jaaay,
I know it's hard for a lot of people to find the way to progress.
Snehal just asked me that in this thread above..
"How do we know" "can we find an instructing guru if we aren't initiated yet".
I think it's really important to try to understand what's essential and what isn't. That way, if you can't find someone to give you personal instruction, you still have guidelines.
All Glories To Srila Prabhupad : )
Navasi