pamho.I would like to have your views on the following. if a person very close to you, does something wrong ,commits a crime .What should be ones reaction?should the person be taken in confidence and be told that you totally disapprove of what he has done and that, had it been anybody else, you would have publicly condemned the sin/crime but just because he happens to be very close to you (e.g.spouse,brother,son) you shall be on his side and even defend him if need be.OR irrespective of your closeness, you will take the side of truth and help the law in proving his guilt eventho it means facing a lot of public infamy and the harsh punishment that would eventually befall the person concerned.What is the right action?One's duty towards protection of the family or despite the extreme consequences being truthful? Hare krishna.
Performing Spiritual Operation is independent of this
Hare Krishna
All that discussion/debate below is marvelous, very useful spiritual lessons to all of us.
But let me just point out that in this case,
PERFORMING SPIRITUAL OPERATION on the person concerned should never be "bad karma" for anyone. (Pl see my original post below).
The Lord and Guru both give you the green signal to educate the person about matter and soul and help him/her work towards surrendering to Krishna. This is the only path that will be least painful. If spiritual transformation of the person does occur, there is no question of you making a left turn or a right turn.
So at least the first step should be spiritual education (which can also mean taking the person to the Guru) , rather than legal action or inaction.
At least you know you have done right by the person , no matter what happens next.
Y s
K
reaction
Hello ekbhaktin8,
yes, your advice is good! The original post though, was asking for reaction guidance and made no reference to spiritual functions.
Spiritual Operations were suggested by respondants.
Your input always creates a better experience!
Haribol
what you feel
I agree that we all should have a bona fide spiritual master.
What do you feel is the right thing to do?
I think you should say and do what you feel is right. This sounds like someone elses karma and as soon as you act, its your karma!
The way i see it - if my karma is going to take a hit for something that I did, Im going to make sure that I really ment it, and if its bad, then its way less complicated to sort out whos fault it is, this speeds up the transformation process. I dont want to be waiting in line for a judgement about my karma because theres a thousand contingencies about whether it was my fault or not, better to keep moving.
Try to use your best sense of intuitive navigation, put your oars in the water and keep rowing until you see land, and if you get totally lost, then call the bona fide master for directions - remember that saying (just making it up) "one who sets out with map and not enough experience, ends up calling on bona fide master anyway" .
Haribol
So soon as you say "What
So soon as you say "What feels right" one is acting on the platform of the mind, the mental platform. The mind of one who is not a pure devotee cannot be trusted as Maharaja Rishabhadev stated:
"SB 5.6.2: Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī replied: My dear King, you have spoken correctly. However, after capturing animals, a cunning hunter does not put faith in them, for they might run away. Similarly, those who are advanced in spiritual life do not put faith in the mind. Indeed, they always remain vigilant and watch the mind's action.
SB 5.6.3: All the learned scholars have given their opinion. The mind is by nature very restless, and one should not make friends with it. If we place full confidence in the mind, it may cheat us at any moment. Even Lord Śiva became agitated upon seeing the Mohinī form of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and Saubhari Muni also fell down from the mature stage of yogic perfection.
SB 5.6.4: An unchaste woman is very easily carried away by paramours, and it sometimes happens that her husband is violently killed by her paramours. If the yogī gives his mind a chance and does not restrain it, his mind will give facility to enemies like lust, anger and greed, and they will doubtlessly kill the yogī.
SB 5.6.5: The mind is the root cause of lust, anger, pride, greed, lamentation, illusion and fear. Combined, these constitute bondage to fruitive activity. What learned man would put faith in the mind?"
Everyone in the world generally feels that they are doing the right thing, whether they are terrorists, mass murderers, or thieves. They will claim that people just don't understand them. This is all due to faith in the mind. As Krishna says in the Bhagavad gita: BG 6.6: For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.
We should take the example of Arjuna who in his state of perplexity approached a bona fied authority in regards to right action, the spiritual master. Hare Krishna
Your humble servant,
Nityananda Chandra Das
good to hear from you
Hello Nityananda Chandra Das,
I agree 100% with all of what you posted, especially BG. verses.
connection of feeling and the mind is vague though.
Im looking right now at your picture, you both feel love for your child 'yes' - theres no mind involved, its just automatic, in this instance nature instills this, in other cases experience instills automatic feeling 'no mind required' - so right feelings instilled by right experience would produce right action, and through right action the relative becomes the absolute and brings proper experience.
another explanation;
If we think one is an impersonalist, we may be acting on the platform of the mind - but If we truly feel one is an impersonalist and our feelings have been instilled by proper experience, when we act, it should be right action, and we would be bringing that impersonalist closer to knowing God!!
- - this is just what I feel though, my feelings could be skewed by improper experiences. Although how would I know unless I took the chance an acted on them to discover by faulty result that I may have a glitch in my program, I need to fix. This may seem like a drama, but if I could learn it from a manual, then my mind could liberate me, as opposed to experience which is learning by doing.
Thanks for your post - you are totally onto something, we should talk more about this!
Haribol
The mind is the heart of
The mind is the heart of sentiment, the mind means I like and I don't like, attachment and aversion, this feeling is seated in duality. If the heart/mind (you will find that in sanskrit these terms are practically interchangeable) is not pure it is not possible to get any absolute judgement. When the heart/mind is thus purified it will use it propensity of attachment and aversion for Krishna Consciousness. It will accept things favorable to the Lord's service and it will reject things that are unfavorable to service.
Pure Bhakti is described to be free from karma (fruitive religious pursuits) and jnana (speculative religious pursuits) thus if we take shelter of feelings and the heart/mind they will mislead us. The heart that is attached to matter will convince the intelligence to act for matter. Thus we cannot put faith in heart for it has mislead us so much in the past. Everyone in this world is generally acting according to the sentiment of the heart.
Thus the positive alternative is sato vritte, following in the footsteps/directions of the pure devotees. Like Arjuna, his heart/mind/feelings told him that fighting in the battle was utterly bad, but in such circumstance he still sought personal guidance from an authority regarding devotional service. And in fact his mind was wrong about his decision therefore it is incumbent upon us to always take shelter of Krishna through his devotees. Hare Krishna
ys
ncd
Thats Interesting
All of this reminds me a little of that thing where a person balances a stack of books on their head and walks heel toe in a perfectly straight line, I don't know why?
The Arjuna take is good - what did he do the second time though? did he ask the same question twice, after he had the experience of guidance. Or if the same situation came up in the future would his heart and his mind have the right feeling and the right thought, or would they potentially deceive him? - that's what I would like to known! - Does one learn and become programmed by experience, or do we operate like flash ram in a computer, wherein we just hold it temporarily and then it evaporates, does anyone know??
I snapped this line from a ICJ article, thought it might promt more brahminical musing -
'For Swami Bhaktivedanta it was more important to find God in the world than to leave the world in order to find liberation'
address: http://www.iskcon.com/icj/4_1/klostermaier.html
Haribol
Ambiguity
Hare Krishna!
First of all, I would like to apologize if the manner of my writing makes me sound "authoritative." I have no authority to speak about anything. I am without knowledge and my attempts at posting comments in these forums is leaving me feeling very awkward, embarassed, and altogether uncomfortable.
Because of this, I had thought to try to delete this account and remove myself from this altogether frightful situation. So, kindly forgive me for my mannerisms. Only those persons who are empowered by the bona fide spiritual master to speak have any authority whatsoever, and I am completeley overwhelmed with shame at my audacity. It is not my intention to pose as learned.
I simply desire to learn about KC and so, in learning, we commit many mistakes. But, at the same time, it is important that persons aspiring for knowledge be able to engage in dialogue. The more dialogue there is, the more room for learning. And, it is due to this that I continue to post comments. So, dear devotees, kindly intercede on my behalf as much as you are able and correct me in any misconceptions that I may have.
Dear MahaVisnu,
Your comments make me smile. From what you have written (correct me if I am wrong), I am seeing an existential dilemna and the questioning spirit of "What do I know?, How can I know?, Where does knowledge come from?, What is the means of attaining knowledge?" etc. Riding the wave of ambiguity in determining what is concrete within one's mind is perfect for understanding the flippant nature of the mind. It can give you nothing. We can go on asking and it will give us nothing.
Instead, we will continue to question and suffer existential anxiety. But, real knowledge does exist, and the mind is the key to telling us where to go. Logic itself dictates that after uselessly philosophizing as to the nature of reality, the mind can only put forward theories upon theories upon theories. But, this can not satisfy us because this is not knowledge. Therefore, from this, we are able to see that we must take help apart from the mind. We must find someone who "knows" something.
The person who "knows" is not under the jurisdiction of the mind. They have surpassed this platform and instead of being shuffled around and spun in endless circles within the mind, they are able to see clearly. Once you come to this state, there is no ambiguity as to what is to be done and what is not to be done. You will know because knowledge will be awakened within you. We are eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. When we awaken our dormant enlightened consciousness, we shall be full of knowledge, and there will be no question of ambiguity in the least.
Arjuna was put into a state of illusion for our benefit, so that Krishna could speak the Bhagavad-Gita. As a pure devotee of the Lord, he can at no time be in illusion. Pure devotees of the Lord are sometimes put into awkward situations by Krishna, but at no time are they actually in illusion. This is because they are always 100% surrendered to Krishna. Therefore, they can never desire to work for themselves. They only work for Krishna.
Lilia
dormant enlightened consciousness
"Dormant Enlightened Consciousness" - I like that, it reminds me of - "Inner Mounting Flame"
No apologies needed, I thought your posts were great, the whole thing was an experience.
Im just a pyro for the agni of spiritual discourse
Haribol
Feelings
Hare Krishna!
The modes of nature extend to the heart, so one can not rely upon one’s feelings to dictate proper action. Nor can one rely upon one’s mind. We must always remember that we are in a very precarious position being under the spell of the modes of material nature. We can not look to ourselves for answers, being completely bound up as we are. We are bound to be in illusion.
As long as one is a conditioned soul, he is subject to the four defects 1) cheating, 2) making mistakes, 3) being in illusion, and 4) having imperfect senses. Therefore, we must recognize our helplessness and take help from an authority, the bona fide spiritual master who can solve the problems of life.
Looking to our feelings is not the answer because as long as we are conditioned, the heart will be dirty, due to contamination with the material modes of nature. One should not give the heart such authority is these circumstances. We can go on feeling and thinking for ourselves for millions and quadrillions of years, but what will it get us? We can not free ourselves from illusion. We must take help from someone who is not in illusion.
The bound can not help the bound. Only the unbound, the bona fide spiritual master, can help the bound. If one at all desires to know what is what, then what must give up this tendency to look to one’s feelings and thoughts for answers and instead, humbly submit ourselves at the feet of a bona fide spiritual master in all sincerity for instruction in life. One must do this in faith.
The spiritual master is that person who knows the science of Krishna and is heavy with knowledge. He can immediately clear any doubts we may have and give us authoritative answers on solving the problems of life. There is no other way.
Lilia
proper/improper
Very informative reply - who is 'not' in illusion though?
I agree that we need the guidance of a spiritual master and faith in the supreme lord.
Taking guidance from the master would be proper experience and to not, improper experience is incurred.
The modes of material nature is our environment in this world, its not a fate. What is the goal? - Why are some liberated before the others?
It happens!
I listen to the classes and lectures of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and its all very clear to me, that's all I can say - maybe I'm nuts, I don't know?
Haribol
The Goal
Hare Krishna!
The goal is to rid ourselves of our current state of amnesia that we are suffering. If you don't know who you are, you are incomplete. This means knowing your spiritual identity, knowing your relationship with God. This means actually knowing your real name, etc. How can anyone ever really be happy if they don't know who they are? The human body is a suitable vessel for doing so. This human form is the boat, sastras are the favorable breezes, and the spiritual master is the captain.
Liberation entails becoming free from the material modes of nature, but liberation is not the goal. Liberation alone can not make anyone happy. The dharma of the spirit soul is to serve Krishna. Bhakti is the goal. So, liberation alone will not suffice. A person who is liberated is still incomplete. Look at Sukadev, he was a liberated soul by birth, but still he was attracted to the pastimes of Lord Krishna. This means that liberation alone can not make one happy. There is something higher to be attained than this. It is said that mukti will stand with folded hands ready to serve a devotee of the lord. It is simply a by-product of devotional service.
Therefore, bhakti is the ultimate goal of life. It is the dharma of the soul. It is the highest and most supreme goal to be achieved. And, it is achieved by rendering service to a pure devotee of the Lord. Krishna is pleased when he sees this. Only those persons who think themselves the servants of the servants of the servants of the servants of Krishna are actually His servants. Therefore, we must place ourselves at the lotus feet of the bona fide spiritual master and serve him in all humility for our ultimate benefit.
Krishna Consciousness
Haribol
Liberation from the material modes of nature is a state of God Consciousness -
Every being is incomplete in the sense that we are part and partial but are not God.
i don't get the incomplete thing - "This means that liberation alone can not make one happy" Being in a state of God Consciousness implies one is with God in spirit.
I'm personally skeptical of the ratio and proportion in the presentation of a lot of scriptural teachings- all the ingredients are there but the ratios are modified thru presentation. this is where a real bona fide spiritual master is really needed!!! - not to get guidance on how to insulate ones self from karma of re-action to someone else's actions.
Hare Krishna
Incomplete
Hare Krishna.
What I meant by this is that one is incomplete if one has not awakenend one's original spiritual relationship with Krishna. It is said that even the liberated souls are attracted to Krishna. There are many forms of God consciousness, that is true. There is the Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan realizations of God. But, not all students are on the same level. Srila Prabhupada compared it to the sun. There are students who study the sunshine, those who study the sun-disc and those that can actually enter in the sun planet itself. So, until we have awakend our original consciousness and we know our original relationship with Krishna, we are incomplete. Meaning, we do not have knowledge of the Absolute Truth.
Perhaps someone else who is more knowledgeable than I am can give more input on this topic.
Lilia
Your "Brother"
Hare Krishna.
Hmmm...Such a question should be submitted to a bona fide spiritual master. This will ensure that one is being instructed properly according to sastra and will relieve any vexation that exists.
In my musing, this is what I have come up with...but, this is only speculation on my part, as I am completely unqualified to answer such a question due to a poor fund of knowledge...so, I would suggest that you approach guru for the correct answer to your question.
If the king hangs a murderer, this is just, because the murderer can become purified of his sins and be promoted even to the heavenly planets. Therefore, it is the duty of the king to administer justice for the murderer's benefit.
In the case of one's family, one must understand that the bodily relationships are only temporary. Therefore, one should look to the soul proper. With the administration of justice, the conditioned soul becomes freed from the reaction of his sinful activities in this life. Overall, suffering for one's sinful acts in this life by making restitution, will free a conditioned soul from having to suffer in future lifetimes for his acts. If you love your "brother," then one should look past the current bodily constitution of the brotherly relationship which is established on the bodily platform, and instead, look towards his well being when he is no longer your "brother."
Lilia
The Spiritual Operation Theatre
Hare Krishna
I agree with all of Lilia's points.
This qn will be best answered by a bona-fide spiritual master.
The best thing to do is to first take the person into confidence, and operate on him/her spiritually. The person needs to be educated about body and soul, soul's relationship with the Lord,
how this current life and bodily attachments are not the ultimate reality of existence.
The person has to be made to realize this, and the concept of karma, and ideally should be able to surrender to the Lord, at whatever level and capacity.
If this happens, it will be easier for the person to come forward and accept punishment. In that case, the legal system might forgive him/her and lessen the punishment. Krishna always does what is right for the soul.
How painful this process will be for you depends on how surrendered YOU are , and hence can see beyond personal relationships of this lifetime.
Many times surgeons do not operate on their family members. They hand over the case to another expert surgeon they have confidence in. Similarly, one may want to take the person (after the priliminary treatment) to a spiritual master or a Sadhu for further treatment.
One may say this is easier said than done. However, someone who has done something so wrong absorbs spiritual teachings faster than the common man who is living a normal material life. All because the bad experience becomes eye-opening to the Absolute Truth of Krishna.
your servant
Krishnali